I am speaking at a public forum in two weeks and would like some help, I am asking this again for more replies?
Posted on February 19th, 2010 by admin
I know that I have asked this already, I am posting it again to get more replies from more people.
Some background first, in my city people have been fired or denied access to the restroom because they were glbt. A local advocacy group proposed a city ordinance be adopted by the council to make it illegal for businesses to evict glbt’s from their residence, deny them access to the gender appropriate lavatory, or to fire an employee in a secular position because they are glbt. A religious coalition was then formed to oppose this ordinance. That started these forums.
This is the second of three forums discussing whether a committee on diversity should approve a city ordinance to prevent employers and land lords from firing people because they were glbt, evicting them and/or throwing them out of the restroom for the same reason. What I need from y’all is studies that disprove a nurture cause for homosexuality, studies that prove a biological cause, biblical verses that would support my arguments that religion is not a relevant issue, and any other relevant information or argument.
This is what I have so far:
1. Even, for the sake of argument, if homosexuality is a choice, why should we be barred from making that choice? We are allowed to get tattoos and piercings.
2. I was asked where does it stop. My answer is that freedom will stop when the minorities rights are no longer violated. This opens up a whole bunch of issues so I will clarify that, I mean when the majority is no longer in control of whether a person can choose a particular lifestyle; within reason of course, pedophiles cannot be allowed to molest children. There is clear harm in that, emotional, physical, and mental.
3. Following that we must define what a right is. Now I am not a scholar on what a right is vs a privilege vs an ability, but I would define a right as an endowed ability or protection granted by a higher power; whatever that may be. An example, people have the right to modify their bodies as they see fit. Tattoos, piercings, surgery. Essentially a right to choose whatever they want provided that choice does not damage others to the point that the choice is exceedingly detrimental to others.
4. The argument was made that passing this ordinance would force my beliefs on others who oppose this ordinance. My answer is simple, forcing you to do anything would involve the use of force to get the other party to commit an act against their will. In this case, I am not forcing them to hire glbt people. I am instead, preventing them from infringing upon my right to make a choice; what to do (career wise), who to love, or where to live.
5. It was said that repeating that the causes are biological does not make it true without proof. My answer: the same is true of a nurture cause.
6. I might bring up the kinsey scale, I’m not sure.
7. A few other things I hope to address: feeling comfortable in the bathroom, religion is a protected class, why glbt people are afraid of christians, people being allowed to fire people over the most mundane things, legalizing morality, and the belief that this ordinance pushes my views on others.
Any critique of the above stated issues is appreciated and particularly links or citations of credible studies (biological) and non credible studies (nurture) are also welcome.
I think the "piercings and tatoos" argument is weak, and while technically correct, will divert the discussion from the real issue to arguing about appearances, which will not win you any hearts and minds. It would be better to argue for freedom of conscience and basic human rights. The fact that one is G/L/B/T does not cancel out the basic right to earn a living, have a decent place to live, and freely associate. To categorize acts between consenting adults as "crimes" is a constraint of conscience and freedom of thought. To be consistent, society would either have to round up and treat/incarcerate ALL members of an undesirable minority (and we’ve had enough historical examples of how THAT works) or leave them alone. The slippery-slope argument would probably be a good one to expand on. Oh, and don’t say "legalizing morailty". You mean, "legislating morality".
Kinsey should be quoted very cautiously. It’s a joke outside the professional disciplines of psychology and statistics.
Good luck!
February 20th, 2010 at 4:40 am
I think the "piercings and tatoos" argument is weak, and while technically correct, will divert the discussion from the real issue to arguing about appearances, which will not win you any hearts and minds. It would be better to argue for freedom of conscience and basic human rights. The fact that one is G/L/B/T does not cancel out the basic right to earn a living, have a decent place to live, and freely associate. To categorize acts between consenting adults as "crimes" is a constraint of conscience and freedom of thought. To be consistent, society would either have to round up and treat/incarcerate ALL members of an undesirable minority (and we’ve had enough historical examples of how THAT works) or leave them alone. The slippery-slope argument would probably be a good one to expand on. Oh, and don’t say "legalizing morailty". You mean, "legislating morality".
Kinsey should be quoted very cautiously. It’s a joke outside the professional disciplines of psychology and statistics.
Good luck!
References :
February 20th, 2010 at 5:24 am
Look really, no offense, but I have this to say that will help you out:
1) stop looking for stuff in the bible that will make it look like it approves homosexuality. I ask you nicely not to blaspheme my religion and take it out of context. I will also post many verses of the Bible that says it’s a sin- as it is.
here goes:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Leviticus 20:13
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. genesis 2
(the above means that it is "shameful" to have sex any other time than when you are married, away from ur parents, and with the opposite sex.)
I Cor. 6:9,
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals, 10 thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
sorry, but that’s the biblical view. It’s just anti-homosexual for a couple reasons: 1- God doesnt like it period; 2- its not natural, and doesnt help the advancement or reproduction of our species; 3- gay sex hurts; 4- gays make straights uncomfortable. SORRY! BUT TRUE!
as for the number 7, I have this to say:
They have NOT "legalized morality". They are simply NOT legalizing immorality. Marriage has been between a man and a woman, and was started in judaism, and transferred to Christianity. it is A HOLY BINDING BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN. what other reason, aside from desecrating and blaspheming our religion, could gays have for wanting marriage? (civil unions give all the same status and benefits!)
and gays aren’t afraid of christians; THEY SHOULD BE AFRAID OF MUSLIMS! MUSLIM COUNTRIES WANT GAYS BURNED ALIVE, AND KILL ANY OPENLY GAY PPL LIVING THERE! YET GAYS ARE SO STUPID THAT THEY SUPPORT LIBERALISM, WHICH IS AGAINST JEWS/CHRISTIANITY AND SUPPORTS MUSLIMS- WHICH WANT THEM DEAD!
Muslims want gays DEAD AND BURNED ALIVE- christians simply dont want them to marry- we want them to get civil unions, and not desecrate our holy religion! we dont want to hurt them! is that so bad??
and the employer is the one PAYING them- HE HAS A RIGHT TO FIRE WHOEVER THE F*CK HE WANTS! period! if you wanna pay for every worthless mexican who cant speak english that gets fired for good damn reason, THEN talk!
and you ARE pushing your views on others! do you not understand how gay marriage would defile our holy religion- and that of islam and judaism as well?! are you that stupid!!!????
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lastly as for science on gays being biologically born that way- don’t bother. No conclusive studies have shown that whatsoever, and none will, most likely. This is because homosexuality is a choice- caused usually by a negative childhood trauma (unfortunately), or rejection by the opposite sex.
References :
P.S. personally yeah gays deserve to use public restrooms, and they deserve to not be fired just cuz theyre gay- however, on the opposite side of the spectrum:
I think a boss has the right to fire whoever he wants for any reason OTHER than affiliation- say if the gay person didnt speak good englihs, or if he was lazy, or if he announced his gayness and made others uncomfortable (they have a habit of doing that, dont they?), or if anybody just wasn’t doing their job.
The ability to fire people creates better workers- DUH! this is why socialism doesnt work- its the opposite of the free market, and NO pressure! no earnings! the more u limit the rights of the person actually paying the people, the crappier the workmanship will be! learn common science before you become a politician!
And I also think that if the gays are using the bathrooms, they shouldnt stare at the opposite sex’s genitals. that would just be creepy.
and P.S. P.S. there IS no "separation of church and state" in the constitution- IF IT IS I DARE U TO QUOTE IT AND GIVE THE PLACE.
also, the Christian classes arent "protected"- there ARE no christian classes in high school! only world religions! and christianity is hated by the schools are u stupid! all the schools show is progressive/liberal news like MSNBC and CNN!!!